By Artie Van Why*
I was raised a Methodist and have been a loyal member of my current United Methodist church, but I am leaving the denomination. I am leaving because I’m gay and I’ve finally had enough of the denomination’s pretense of welcoming the gay community.
It’s time someone called the denomination on its blatant doublespeak, so I will gladly step up to the plate.
“Open Hearts. Open Minds. Open Doors.” is the denomination’s seemingly ingenuous welcoming catch phrase. However, when it comes to the gay community the denomination’s heart, mind and door is only open to us if we play by their rules.
The “rule book” for the denomination is its Book of Discipline. In the book’s section on homosexuality it says that “all persons are individuals of sacred worth” (which, I would assume, includes gay individuals). Even so, it appears a gay person’s sacred worth really isn’t worth that much.
We are welcome to sit in the pews of United Methodist churches. We just aren’t allowed to preach from their pulpits. Well, we can; but only if we don’t acknowledge or, as the Book of Discipline puts it, “self-avow” that we are “practicing” our homosexuality.
I bristle at the misuse of that word in referring to gay people. When do you ever hear anything about heterosexuals practicing their straightness?
I wish the denomination would just come out and say what they really mean. They don’t want gay people having sex.
A celibate gay person = good. An unchaste gay person = bad.
What the denomination fails to recognize is that in telling us we can’t “practice” (or be) who we are, they are telling us that we can never have romantic love in our lives; forgetting that love is more than just sex. There are the emotional, mental and spiritual intimacies two people in love develop. The memories made; the joys and sorrows shared.
I want to ask the denomination, if I were to commit my life to another man and if we were to live together for 30 years; for better or for worse, in sickness and in health and never, ever once made love would we be considered non-practicing homosexuals? Would we be okay in The United Methodist Church’s eyes? Or does the denomination’s definition of practice include the above-mentioned gifts that a loving relationship brings, which go beyond just the physical?
Are we being told that we are not allowed to love or be loved? That we don’t deserve it?
The United Methodist Church will gladly accept our tithes and offerings yet it rejects our relationships and legal marriages.
According to the Book of Discipline, the denomination “insist[s] that all persons, regardless of age, gender, marital status, or sexual orientation, are entitled to have their human and civil rights ensured.” Why, then, isn’t the United Methodist Church at the forefront of defending our civil (not religious) right of marriage equality?
The United Methodist Church can’t have it both ways. They are either for us or against us. Doesn’t the Bible say something about those being neither hot nor cold but lukewarm being spit out?
The denomination’s campaign of open hearts, open minds and open doors is deceptive and hypocritical; nothing more than a marketing ploy. Perhaps the following would be a more honest appraisal of the United Methodist Church.
Closed Hearts to the hurt inflicted on gay men and women by not affirming their relationships or their right to marriage.
Closed Minds to the very thought that God might bless and sanction loving, committed gay relationships.
Closed Doors to gay families that wish to be validated, respected and assured they are equal to “traditional” families.
The United Methodist Church says “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.” I think the way the denomination treats its gay members is just as incompatible. So, I am taking my leave and will find a church that won’t mind me “practicing” my gayness.
*Van Why is the author of “That Day in September,” a moving remembrance of Sept. 11, 2011 in New York City.
58 comments
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Phil Ross
July 28, 2012 at 8:38 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Open Hearts – only if spiritual surgery is performed; Open Minds – only when what’s being poured in resembles what we already believe; Open Doors – Good luck finding a church open when you truly need one, especially if you are in need of sanctuary.
I’m truly sorry for your pain and for that of all others who feel excluded by the Un-United Methodist Church. The only two things that truly matter according to the teachings of Jesus is that we love God with all our heart, mind, and soul and our neighbor as our self. We must truly despise ourselves, the way we treat one another; and if we were totally in love with God, that love would overflow from our lives. We seem to be failing on both counts!
Let us pray for a fresh movement of God’s Spirit that we will one day soon truly open our hearts, minds, and doors.
Rev. Jim Brooking
July 28, 2012 at 11:23 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
May God forgive the church for being hypocritical and causing so much pain to God’s children!
Jean Schwien
July 28, 2012 at 6:41 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Dear Artie–
Thank you for your eloquent statement of what is absolutely wrong in the UMC. I agree wholeheartedly. The only way I’ve been able to remain in the UMC is because I’ve had the privilege of serving for 11 years in churches where “Open hearts, minds and doors” was a working reality. My current congregation is part of the Reconciling Ministries network. We see ourselves as practicing “ecclesiastical disobedience” by remaining true to Christ’s example of relating to ALL people–even when the local norms called it blasphemy.
I pray you will find a spiritual home where you will no longer have to fight this battle, endure this discrimination or put up with the pain our UMC “official” stance has caused you.
I wish you peace,
Jean Schwien
Salt Lake City, UT
ben wallick
July 30, 2012 at 6:34 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I’d like to thank you for your honesty on this sensitive and complicated topic. That being said, I do believe that Scripture disagrees with your definition of love that includes a sexual relationship between practicing homosexuals. I will choose not to list them, but I assume you are aware of the myriad passages affirming traditional marriage, and those warning against practicing homosexuality. And while the Bible also reflects the “open hearts, open minds, oppen doors” statement, we can see that The Book of Discipline, in it’s perceived double-standard, merely reflects the scriptural stance. As a United Methodist, I am fully committed to the Wesleyan view of the supreme importance of scipture, measured secondly by tradition, reason, and experience.
I also sense in your writing that those who hold a similar view as mine have more of an an attitude of condemnation than we actually do. I realize the unfortunate reality of those that would seek to condemn the openly gay community, but I am not one of them. But I desire to see healing and reconciliation from a way of life that scripture clearly portrays as sinful, and therefore separating from the accepting relationship with God. While God’s love will of course be present for anyone, a Holy God simply cannot accept a soul that refuses to be repentant of clearly revealed sin, in God’s presence. In the same way you were born with homosexual attractions, I was born with attractions to other sins, namely those outside the realm of sex in marriage. I am married, and I am sometimes attracted to violate God’s standard for sex being confined to within marriage. Before I was married, I was attracted in the same way. But is the simple fact that I was born with these tendencies an excuse to somehow justify doing them?
BTW, I consider chaste homosexuals (reffering to homosexual attractions, but are they really homosexual?) to be some of the strongest people in our society.
Michele
July 31, 2012 at 8:56 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I know you may not mean it this way, but I never understand how other people presume to know that my relationship with God is somehow broken … “I desire to see healing and reconciliation from a way of life that scripture clearly portrays as sinful, and therefore separating from the accepting relationship with God.” I walk with God every day, seek to follow God’s will for my life, and struggle to be faithful to that. I want nothing more than to do what pleases God, because that is the right thing to do. I am also a lesbian. And God has been with me throughout my entire coming out experience. In fact, my coming out to myself and accepting my own homosexuality was in direct result to months of prayer to God for peace and healing in my life. The depression I was experiencing was lifted immediately when I realized that I am gay, and I have never again felt that depressed or disconnected from myself and from God.
I can’t answer how that can be, given the “clobber” passages in Scripture, nor am I wiling to argue biblical passages, since I don’t know as that has ever changed anyone’s mind. I will say this; Scripture was written at a specific point in time to address a specific thing that was going on at that time. We will probably never really know what was happening that needed to be addressed by those passages, but I’d bet it wasn’t gay or lesbian couples or families just living peacefully in the house next door.
That said, the one constant throughout the Old and New Testaments is God’s desire to be close to us, for us as God’s children to love each other, love ourselves and love God wholeheartedly. When we tell people who know themselves to be homosexual that they are wrong, or sinful, we are telling them that who they are is wrong. How do we expect that they will love themselves, or be able to love God and others, when they are called intrinsically evil or bad? If anything, those who condemn gay folks, or who keep them from our churches, are driving us from God. Seems to me, opening our churches, our pulpits and our lives to everyone regardless of sexual orientation fosters nothing more sinister than an atmosphere of love and acceptance, which can only cause everyone involved to grow and prosper in the love of God.
James Dwyer
July 30, 2012 at 6:49 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Dear Artie,
Your response to developments is understandable and clear.
It is regrettable in its timing, however, since two jurisdictional coferences (Northeastern and Western) have taken clear steps to indicate their disagreement with, opposition to, or outright rejection of the General Conference’s stance on homosexuality and “self-avowed practicing” homosexuals. Other individual annual conferences in the North Central Jurisdiction have also taken clear steps to trivialize the impact of the existing handicapping exclusions,
There is still hope for the future that United Methodists may yet figure this out!
Jim
Lyle M Miller, Sr
July 30, 2012 at 6:56 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I am saddened by the comments of this gentleman who seems to believe that God intended for two men to engage in sexual acts with one another, that such behaviors are not sinful, and therefore has chosen to leave the United Methodist Church. He speaks of love, but if one reads his blog carefully, it comes down to sex, and in my opinion, one cannot deny that it is anything but unnatural sex, not something that God designed when he created humans, not as two men or two women, but as one man for one woman at the dawn of creation and told them to be fruitful and multiply. This gentleman, if he is going to be honest must agree that he wold not be here if it had not been that he had a father and a mother who did as God intended and were fruitful and brought him into the world. I truly believe that every gay, bisexual, and otherwise begin to realize that they are here only because a “straight” couple engaged in natural sex and gave birth to them and that is what God has desired from us since the dawn of creation.
Scott Amundsen
July 30, 2012 at 7:29 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Okay I want to know why the HELL “some people” see the word “homosexual” and read it like this: “homo SEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXshul!”
And don’t bother to deny it because you already said in so many words that it is about sex rather than love. What do you know about our lives? NOTHING. I am SICK unto DEATH of HETEROSEXUAL people trying to analyze me and telling me what homosexuality is when I have been LIVING it for FIFTY YEARS.
I am bowing out of this discussion as of now. You and others like you are merely insulting the intelligence and offending the humanity of the LGBTQ brothers and sisters in your midst and in the process of doing so you are making jackasses of yourselves.
Live with THAT.
marty
July 30, 2012 at 7:33 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Hogwash. One thing he says is that you don’t hear anything about heterosexuals practicing their straightness. Of course not. That is a private matter and should be one for the “gays”. Ones sexual orientation should be no ones business. If the “gays don’t want to be singled out, let them be quiet about their preferences. They don’t want equality; they want special treatment. I for one am tired of all the hullaballoo concerning this. “The Discipline” should be more explicit, not less. Tell it like it is; that homosexuality is a sin and it is correct in not allowing homosexuals to be ordained.
“Homodsexual marriage” is a misnomer. I for one will accept “gay marriage” when the gay couple can procreate.
So, goodbye, Artie
Michele
July 31, 2012 at 9:07 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Please tell me what special treatment we gays want, exactly, I’ve never really understood that concept. I don’t want to be able to discuss my sex life (or lack thereof) with the world; you’re right, it’s private. I want to be able to have a picture of my family on my desk at work, even if it includes two people of the same gender as obvious partners, and not be fired for being gay. I want to be able to go into public places with a significant other of the same gender and be treated like everyone else, no better and no worse. I want to be able to hold the hand of a significant other in public, just like my friends the longtime heterosexual married couple do all the time, and not worry about comments or physical harassment. I want to be able to marry the person I love, even if the person is of the same gender, because I want to proclaim my love and fidelity to that person, just like you did when you married your opposite sex partner. And, if we are married, I want to be able to provide that significant other with the same benefits that you take for granted, like health insurance, life insurance, disability benefits. And, ultimately, I want to be left alone to live my life, not judged, harassed, intimidated, or driven out of my faith community or my employment because of something that is, you’re right, private.
What is that so revolutionary?
Heather E. Klason
July 30, 2012 at 7:37 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Thank you for your courageous comments. I am sorry that this is your decision, but it is one I understand. I hope you find your way to an accepting worshipping community. One day I hope you will be able to return because the change you and many of your other Methodist brothers and sisters seek will have happened. It is one I pray for and try to live into
Jo
July 30, 2012 at 8:16 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Now I am really confused. I presumed that homosexuals practiced sex in their relationship. Van Why leaves the impression that they don’t.
Don
July 30, 2012 at 8:32 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
There is a strong misunderstanding as to which book comes first in our denomination. The poster in this blog believes that it is the heart of our denomination that states hpmosexuality is a sin and like all sins, must be recognized as such in a paerson’s life so they can then repent and the healing can begin. The issue lies in where people’s eyes have fallen.
In the past, a sextant was used to guide a ship’s captain or navigator in the darkness to the correct heading. This required three points to work. The user, the horizon and the stars. If any of these points were left out the reading proved false and the ship would be lost.
We function the same way. We are searching for guidance in the darkness. We are one point of contact. The Spirit is the second point of contact. We get guidance as we live in the world. The Bible is the third and most important point. This point never changes as it is the Word of God and though man and all we do can be fickle. God is resolute. If this were not so, then we would not be able to find faith in salvation.
All this being said, it is not the Discipline that one should concern themselves with. This book was put together so we could all function as a unit. It does nothing to trump the true Word which is given to us from God. The arguments about open minds, hearts and doors is weak at best because you will not find one .ethodist church that will turn away a sinner regardless their addiction. The argument this blog and many like presents is that of the Vegas mentality. Sin happens in Vegas but people believe it stays there. Those addicted to homosexuality or other sexually deviant based sins believe what they are doing is righteous. They will search for e very legalistic way to justify their sin so they xan appear normal. Tragically, all of the noise, all of the tantrums are about convincing themselves that God is REALLY ok with what they are doing. If the church signs off on it, then it must be ok.
The church needs to continue to use three points of reference. We cannot as faithful believer allow the worldview to warp the actual truth. To show true love and compassion to our brothers ans sisters that are struggling with this addiction means we must hold fast to the coarse. Do not send them into waters we know to be hazardous and certain death. I know that those struggling do not understand just how much we do love you. Giving into to an addicts demands is the most destructive thing we could ever do.
Susan Safford-Gaul
July 30, 2012 at 8:33 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Artie – thank you for sharing your experience with the denomination. You are corrent – the way the denomination treats homosexuals is incompatible with Chrstian teaching. For this, I am very sad and very ashamed of claiming the name United Methodist. I pray in time that this discrimination will end. We may never end people’s prejudice but surely we can stop the discrimination that causes so much harm.
Rich Buckley
July 30, 2012 at 8:41 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I’ve come to believe that one structural change in the UMC that would assist in resolving this apparent division in the church, would be to create a 3rd form of spiritual- ministry discussed here:
http://tinyurl.com/85ugyqq
The process would likely begin to heal this division almost immediately.
Thomas M. Hardwick, Retire Elder
July 30, 2012 at 8:51 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Artie Van Why could not have said it better! I am in full agreement with his commentary. I think it is an absolute disgrace that The United Methodist Church makes such promising statements of the heart of the faith and then flip-flops into nothingness! Talk about impotence! I, too, am weary of our failure to be bold in eradicating all this garbage we try to sell to others as “love.” More power to you, Artie; more power to you. I have nothing but deep respect for your stance on real justice.
Chriss Zimmerman
July 30, 2012 at 9:40 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I too have been a UM Christian since 1981.
No grudge, just enough for me. I can not add
To what you wrote except to say I agree.
We visited a local ELCA congregation yesterday
And We (my partner of 8 years) really enjoyed
the service. Of course the UMC also voted to
Severe the connection that was in place
Since 1950+ with ELCA clergy. In my heart
I will be one of the people called Methodist.
Agape CZ
Scott Amundsen
July 30, 2012 at 9:55 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I had thought that this issue might well have led to schism at GC2012 in Tampa this year; in fact I was quite surprised when it did not happen, because we LGBT United Methodists and our supporters are pretty fed up with a Church that does not practice its own slogan. Unfortunately the conservatives basically shut us up and from what I could see the issue was hardly even talked about.
Leaving the Church is doubtful for me and my husband, as he works for the Church as well as being a member. But from what I am seeing and hearing the schism that did not happen this year is increasingly becoming a possibility for 2016. And I say let it happen.
Steve Hanusa
July 30, 2012 at 10:03 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
The hypocrisy of the UMC re discrimination toward homosexuals is the tip of the iceberg. The church, as expressed in the Wisconsin Conference BOOM also discriminates those who are different, finding those uacceptable for ministry who did not find the mold of ‘pious upstanding clergy’ whose history falls outside of the norm. There is little forgiveness and no redemption, only exclusion.
Rick
July 30, 2012 at 10:16 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
The UMC’s position is based on the Bible, and is not “doublespeak” in any way. We have always loved sinners and hated sin. The Church’s position on this is not new, and has not changed.
While I very much disagree with your perspective, I applaud you for finding another denomination. The UMC’s position on this will not be changing for the forseeable future. If this is an important issue for you, why not simply go worship where you will be happy? Makes sense.
marty
July 30, 2012 at 10:30 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
The Church does not keep gays from attending services nor belonging, It just forbids them from being in the pulpit as ministers and also from performing gay union services. The gays misinterpret, possible deliberatly, what the Discipline says.
Lois
July 30, 2012 at 10:53 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Rick — the UMC’s position is, indeed “doublespeak” — calling our homosexual brothers and sisters “people of sacred worth” and then tearing down that sacred worth with sharp language of exclusion is definitely “doublespeak”. And using that trite phrase “love the sinner, hate the sin” is so very patronizing, as is your second paragraph. Homosexuality is not a sin, any more than wearing blended cloth or eating meat and milk together in the same meal is considered sin any more. If, as you believe, the UMC’s position won’t be changing on this issue for the foreseeable future, then the UMC will continue to see larger drops in membership than have already been evident. I applaud the Western Jurisdiction and the NE Jurisdiction for their strong stands recently taken on this issue. They have been too long in coming.
Rick
July 30, 2012 at 8:33 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I’m sorry, but that is incorrect.
Restrictions against wearing blended cloth or eating meat and milk together in the same meal were Old Testament civil laws for the Ancient Hebrews. Homosexual acts, on the other hand, are condemned all over the Bible – in both the Old and New Testament.
The way to grow the Church is not to renounce God’s Holy Word. The Episcopal Church has made the changes you advocate, and it is killing that Church. In the last decade alone, average Sunday attendance in Episcopal Churches dropped 23 percent, and not a single Episcopal diocese in the country saw churchgoing increase.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html
Gin
July 30, 2012 at 11:06 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I too have been contemplating leaving the church Artie. When I came out to my church, I was asked “Well what about Open Minds, Open Hearts, Open Doors?” My response: It’s a slogan. Fortunately, my congregation to a certain extent is okay with my orientation. But it is still seen as my issue not theirs. I have opted to stay for now – in the hopes that maybe in one congregation I can make some type of difference – showing them that I am not incompatible – my “lifestyle” is the same as theirs – I worship a God of love, understanding and God created me.
Rick – Christianity, including Methodism, is based on the teachings of Christ. Judaism follows the tenants of the Old Testament, primarily the first 5 Books, The Law. Christ taught understanding, love, compassion, and included those who were on the margins of Judaic culture. Christianity is primarily a New Testament religion. So, based on the New Testament – how is treating the GLBT community as lepers Biblically based? And if we are going to follow ALL the laws/rules of the Bible: No divorce. Multiple partners – most of the early men of the Bible had consorts, trim your beard to a specific set length, oh, and on all the corners of your clothes, wear tassles. Are you ready to live entirely as the Bible set forth in the first 5 books?
Scott Amundsen
July 30, 2012 at 11:34 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
To simply say that something is “based on the Bible” is a way of dismissing an issue that one either finds distasteful or simply does not wish to deal with. Anyone with any real knowledge of the Bible, and while I am no scholar I have done my share of casual study, knows that the Bible is loaded with contradictions and things that have been distorted over time through poor translations, to say nothing of the things (mostly in the OT) that today’s Christians simply ignore. We don’t keep kosher, we do not practice circumcision, we do not observe the same Sabbath that the Jews do, and we have no issues with wearing mixed fabric clothing or planting more than one crop in the same field. Yet when you get to the two verses in Leviticus that APPEAR to address homosexuality (and it must be noted that it only mentions men), suddenly we are supposed to adhere to this one commandment while basically jettisoning everything else surrounding it.
There’s a word for that sort of thing, and Jesus used it: HYPOCRISY.
Rick
July 30, 2012 at 8:40 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Nobody is “living entirely as the Bible set forth in the first 5 books”. The New Testament – in addition to the Old Testament – condemns homosexuals acts. Please read the following New Testament passages: Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:9-10, Matthew 19:4-5, Jude 1:7.
Lyle M Miller, Sr
July 30, 2012 at 11:41 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
When will folks learn that God didn’t create two Adam’s and tell them to be fruitful and multiply. No, God intended that one man and one woman be united and become one together to fill the earth with children. Those who claim that it is all about love, I can only say, I don’t believe that is the case. If you think about it carefully, it is more about sex and less about love. All of the words about to men or two women loving each other becomes a moot question. I too can love men as well as women, but that doesn’t mean that I need to be given free reign to engage in sex with someone of the same sex as myself, not does it give me free reign to engage in sex with any woman that comes along. I have been married for 54 years to one woman and have been blessed again and again. I believe that all those who claim their sexual orientation as that of being gay need to remember that it was a man and a woman who came together and conceived them and gave birth to them. If is wasn’t for two people participating in God’s plan, they wouldn’t be here today.
rumed
July 30, 2012 at 12:02 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
It is true that there’s not as much said about heterosexual sin…mainly because heterosexual sinners are not pushing for the acceptance of their sin as are those who practice homosexuality, which is called sin in the Bible along with adultery and fornication. (1 Cor. 6) We are all sinners saved by grace. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, seemingly a set up, by the way, that He did not judge her, BUT He also said to go and sin no more. The “go and sin no more” must go for us all and we must go in that direction: to sin no more. It this hard? Yes. Is it doable? It must be or Jesus wouldn’t have said to go and sin no more. Practicing homosexuals must not lead in the church, but neither should practicing adulterers, practicing fornicators, those who practice getting drunk, and those who steal. Is this insensitive? Only to those who yearn for the inclusion of those who practice sinning as if it were okay. From Isaiah: Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. May we all go and sin no more!
Roger Wolsey
July 30, 2012 at 1:03 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
rumed, FYI, the majority of heterosexual marriages conducted by UM clergy are of couples who are living together before marriage. Moreover, our denomination allows for married persons to divorce for reasons other than adultery; and we all divorced persons to remarry. We are hypocritically scapegoating homosexual persons.
Christine
August 13, 2012 at 1:23 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Rumed,
“It is true that there’s not as much said about heterosexual sin…mainly because heterosexual sinners are not pushing for the acceptance of their sin . . ”
Why WOULD they? Their sins are already accepted! We still ordain heteros who have divorced/remarried, or who have lived out of wedlock with their Significant Others, or who have even committed adultery. We allow to continue in full connection, ordained ministers who have had affairs with married congregants (perhaps causing the couple to divorce) and have even gone on to marry the person with whom they had an adulterous affair.
If such sins as these – which obviously DO harm/hurt others – can be ‘overlooked’ or, more accurately, CONDONED through the lack of action by the Church at large or by the BOOM, then HOW can we justify refusing ordination to a homosexual who has NOT committed adultery, broken up someone else’s marriage, etc., but merely wants to honor a loved one through a lifelong commitment of fidelity?
It is THIS hypocrisy that most offends those Christians who some like to paint with what they considered the defaming word of ‘liberal’ or ‘progressive’. What was Christ if not a ‘liberal’ and a ‘progressive’ in His time?
Lyle Miller
August 23, 2012 at 12:48 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I just read your post where by you pointed out the reality that we seem to conveniently overlook the sin of hetrosexual clergy while saying no to the homosexual population when it comes to serving in the church. What we really need is a true revival which preaches righteousness on everyone’s part, no exceptions.
marty
August 23, 2012 at 7:29 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Just because these things are done does not make them right. Now does it make other sins any less sinful.
Christine
August 24, 2012 at 2:25 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
No, it does not make other sins any less sinful. It DOES convict the entire UMC, however, for its duplicity and hypocrisy. Our current position is a PRIME example of picking and choosing which of the Gospel we like and will follow, and which we do not and will ignore, or perhaps more accurately, interpreting portions of Gospel to support our own lifestyles, while interpreting other portions to condemn lifestyles that differ from our own. God must be weeping at such adulteration of His Words.
Glen Haworth
July 30, 2012 at 12:15 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
While I grieve the loss of any members, I have to say that my experience BY FAR as a pastor in the UMC has been that people fed up with the church ignoring its own Discipline and the Bible are leaving the church in droves. Every time a “church trial” returns a “not guilty” verdict or some slap on the wrist to someone who has willfully and boldly broken the rules I am confronted by angry parishioners demanding to know why. I can only shake my head and tell them it isn’t supposed to be this way! But there are rampant jury nullification and bishops who are unwilling to enforce Disciplinary rules with which they disagree. Jesus said “a house divided against itself cannot stand.” The UMC is woefully divided, with no resolution in sight. I fear that schism is inevitable.
Sharyn Saffold
July 30, 2012 at 12:31 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Go check out the United Churh of Christ……UCC…ALL are welcome in that denomination..the hymns, the structure of worship, etc will be very much like the UMC..but without the anti gay stance…..Good Luck to You…….
Lyle M Miller, Sr
July 31, 2012 at 3:32 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I think you need to know that the United Church of Christ has split over this issue and many congregations have formed what is beig identified as the 4 C’s. I also know of one UCC pastor who was fired bercause she performed a same sex marriage ceremony in what is usually know as liberal Conn.
Sharyn Saffold
July 31, 2012 at 11:07 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I did not know that..I grew up in the UCC….and found them to always be inclusive……my guess is here are still many congregations that will be inviting and understanding..hope so!!
Holly
July 30, 2012 at 12:42 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Artie, when you find the church that has all the other great things about United Methodism without the hypocrisy, please tell me where to find it, too. I am a heterosexual woman who has been active and involved in my church, district and conference for many years and am a certified communications trainer, trained to spit out all that baseless marketing material. I decided that I must leave the church if some move toward compromise did not arise out of the general session this year, but I cannot find my place! Can we PLEASE start a new church?!
Roger Wolsey
July 30, 2012 at 12:49 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I truly appreciate your decision. However, I hope others don’t give up on us yet. Some of us are stepping up to bring about real change! Please see: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithforward/2012/07/now-this-is-outlaw-progressives-with-backbone/
Douglas Dowson
July 30, 2012 at 2:46 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Artie and Scott,
I’m sorry you have been misled by the slogan that was adopted by United Methodist several years ago. At the time I had real feelings of dread about the implications of what was implied and who they thought they were talking to. I saw this action as an attempt to further liberalize the United Methodist Church.
As a pastor, I do not go around rubbing people’s noses in their personal problems; therefore the politiization of sexual politics has no place in the church because these are personal problems that each person must deal with in their own special way with God. And as a pastor I extend an hand to listen and care for any person who comes to deal with these issues on whatever level – and these are private; or at least they were until state and federal laws required absolutely pastors must violate confidentiality should they suspect child molestation or harrassment or abuse. And now we’ve put on display the problems people are having with sin so every one can see all their dirty laundry.
I do not agree God created you in the fashion of a practicing homosexual – I do agree each one of us are beset by an array of temptations not of God’s doing! And I do agree God can give us the strength and grace to rise above these temptations.
I do not agree that any Christian can disassociate themselves from the Old Testament Law simply because they either don’t agree with it or more so, don’t understand it! But we do not need to just understand the Old Testament but all the New Testament as well. On two very important occasion the New Testament scripture presents very definite definitions of what God expects. Jesus said that sexual union may only be holy and acceptable in the marriage of a man and woman in marriage – adultry, promiscuity (two people living together or having intercourse out of marriage is unacceptable). We have in our Social Principles as statment of this in very direct smiple terms – “Celebacy in singleness, fedelity in marriage” In the second New Testament citation; the great theologian and Apostle of the New Testament, Paul, stated a very clear prohibiliton against homosexuality.
Now how do we deal with it! I am aware of how people take controversy and ridicule – I’ve worked with many divorcees who felt unaccepted by their churches and left. Yes, there are certainly homophobes as much as any other kind of sinner in the church, but not every one is nor would it be right to suggest such a thing because you are angry at the church.
United Methodist have alway felt the need to work out their salvation within the body of Christ – not abandon it. I have no judgment on you, I am not God! But I do say to you that anyone who said the scriptures of the Old or New Testament should be ignored or voided was playing God! In essence they were playing at reverse judgment. For this I am sad because you have been misled – I’ve probed the scripture long and deep and God has clearly stated His judgment against this behavior as well as any behavior which abandons fedelity in the marriage covenant or promiscuity outside marriage.
I am here to help you and support you in overcoming these temptations and say to you I have my own temptations of another kind that equally challenge me as yours challenge you. In this my mind is open to care for you because we are both two sinners (God’s definition, not mine) striving to “go on to perfection” and live holy lives. My heart is open to you, as is my door. My mind is as open as God will allow!
Yes, there a those who put up this slogan as wishful thinking, but understand – most of us will not cross the line God has drawn – the last 35 years the United Methodist Church has stood faithful to God’s expectation and I am praying we will continue to do so!
Scott Amundsen
July 30, 2012 at 3:00 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
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Nobody ever told me that any of the Scriptures of either Testament should be ignored or voided. All you have to do is look at the behavior of modern Christians, including those of the UMC. They do not follow half of what is laid out in the OT and if you are trying to tell me that they do, either you are insane or you are merely insulting my intelligence.
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That’s interesting, since I have never in my entire life experienced a sexual attraction toward the opposite sex, so as to how God created me, we will simply have to agree to disagree on that one. And the Reconciling Ministries Network would disagree with your stance as well, so don’t kid yourself that your view represents the entire UMC because it does not.
Incidentally, I do not need to “practice” homosexuality; I got it right the first time.
Holly
July 30, 2012 at 3:07 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Seriously, Douglas, you need to spend a little more time with that New Testament and get to know Jesus a little better. You might realize that he came to debunk most of the (deleted) espoused in the Old Testament.
And while you’re reading that, read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/esther-j-hamori/biblical-standards-for-marriage_b_1540159.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008 , an excellent article on the “Biblical Standards for Marriage” as they appear in both the Old and New Testament.
Rev. Jim Brooking
July 30, 2012 at 3:22 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I am so tired of this sort of response. The fact is that Jesus said not ONE word about homosexuality and had plenty to say about divorce. The church insists on putting words in Jesus’ mouth when it comes to homosexuality and continues to ignor, justify, and twist his words about divorce. We ALLOW divorced and remarried clergy, choir members, various board members and pew occupiers. Nowhere do I find where the church states that divorce is “incompatible with Christian teaching”. How long will the church continue with this hypocrisy? Does the church not realize that people can see through our hypocrisy? Does the church not care? Why is Homosexuality, of which Jesus said not one word, incompatible with Christian teaching and divorce, which Jesus has much to say about, NOT incompatible with Christian teaching? Why do we ordain adulterers and allow them prominent places in the church? Perhaps one day the church will answer this question without a lot of double-speak and justification.
Scott Amundsen
July 30, 2012 at 3:02 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Oops I made an error. Need to repost:
“But I do say to you that anyone who said the scriptures of the Old or New Testament should be ignored or voided was playing God!”
Nobody ever told me that any of the Scriptures of either Testament should be ignored or voided. All you have to do is look at the behavior of modern Christians, including those of the UMC. They do not follow half of what is laid out in the OT and if you are trying to tell me that they do, either you are insane or you are merely insulting my intelligence.
“I do not agree God created you in the fashion of a practicing homosexual – I do agree each one of us are beset by an array of temptations not of God’s doing! And I do agree God can give us the strength and grace to rise above these temptations.”
That’s interesting, since I have never in my entire life experienced a sexual attraction toward the opposite sex, so as to how God created me, we will simply have to agree to disagree on that one. And the Reconciling Ministries Network would disagree with your stance as well, so don’t kid yourself that your view represents the entire UMC because it does not.
Incidentally, I do not need to “practice” homosexuality; I got it right the first time.
Bill Garrard
July 30, 2012 at 4:16 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I am sorry you and other folks don’t feel welcome in the United Methodist Church and persons leaving any church has a sadness about it as does any separation. However denominational affiliations are by their nature aggregates of persons who affirm the same basic truths and so are a means by which we find our place of affinity in the faith. No community of faith that states what it affirms will attract all people no matter how open is its hospitality and welcome.. Christian European history reveals that we used to kill each other over strongly held theological and other positions. Thank goodness for the freedom of denominational affiliations and religious tolerance. God’s creation of these seem to me like what Jesus said of divorce in the context of marriage: a means of mediating our human brokenness within the Body of Christ..
The United Methodist Church’s statements on its understanding on same sex orientation and practice are at best trying to hold together the Biblical based message of God’s love and holiness that is to be expressed in God’s people. The prohibition against homosexual practice in the Bible is listed always in the context of other behaviors that are not desired by God. I have asked myself, “Why then would the UM church single out the practice of same sex behavior as being contrary to Christian teaching and not explicitly list all other numerous behaviors that are contrary to God’s expectation of holiness. The answer came to me that this is only because some in our church are advocating that indeed this practice unlike the others listed is not contrary to Christian teaching and therefore are wanting the church to condone such practice. The fact that we recognize that all of us fall short of the expectation of holiness and of our for need the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ to remain in right relationship with God does not disavow the judgment of God for our sins, no matter what they are. The church is to stand for and guide one into a life of holiness and we are not at liberty to diminish this because love indeed demands it.
So we may disagree about what constitutes holy practice in matters of faith, but we affiliate with those who support our best understanding of this. So if the United Methodist church were to not see all as persons of worth or to proclaim that sexual behavior beyond the bonds of the marriage of a man and woman is acceptable, I would have to explain “Why I am leaving the United Methodist Church?” Our current positions are not without tension yet we can hold these together by the grace of God. Such is the Body of Christ on earth but I am confident that unity will prevail in the end.
Helen Dukes
July 30, 2012 at 6:26 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I think we need to bring before the next General Conference wording that would bring this into conformity with all the prohibitions. Clergy who eat pork, wear cotton-poly clothes, harvest all their gardens, eat hot-dogs sacrificed to the idol Baseball, etc, etc, etc,- should be defrocked. One way or the other. Let’s not remain hypocritical. We all sin, let’s not single out homosexuals and call it sin when it may or may not be sin for them. Sin, in my humble opinion, is what seperates us from God. I know many gays and lesbians who are closer to God because of their problems with people who consider them sinners. Isn’t there something about taking the speck out of our neighbor’s eye when there’s a log in our own? I empathize with homosexuals, because I know I can’t be anything but heterosexual no matter how much I may want to be.
Charles
July 30, 2012 at 10:48 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Why do people who think homosexuality is “right” ignore the Scripture’s clear statements that it is sin, and an abomination, and insist on the right to preach SIN from the pulpit?
Marti Middleton
July 31, 2012 at 9:41 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I am a straight 62 year old woman. My heart and my mind has been open for as long as I can remember, however it has become more and more clear to me that as a United Methodist, I will never be strong enough to open the doors!!! If the United Methodist Church can’t live up to their motto, “Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors,” how can I get in with the doors closed?
jon sullivan
July 31, 2012 at 11:30 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Judge not, lest Ye be judged.
Seems clear to me.
Religious judgement has a mote in it’s eye.
I could also write an article with the same name, but if I told the story of one enterprising religious couple rising in the ranks and using the office for personal gain and at a cost to members of a supposedly lay driven congregation until those left disheartened and broken by abuse of their selves, it wouldn’t surprise anyone who ever attended regularly the depths of dysfunction by the CEO’s installed by the political machinery of the conservative forces trying to dictate it’s members beliefs, and plans for increasing membership while driving gods children away.
That said, a congregation is people, not corporate heads. The UMC should figure it out before it goes the way of Zorastrianism.
To my brother in Christ Artie, who has been offended..your righteous indignation is correct. You need not apologize for those around you who cannot love you for their simple mindsets. Those whose help you seek are increasingly becoming enlightened, but you shouldn’t have to wait to be happy. Please surround yourself with those who can love you, and go forward in peace and love. In Christ’s name we pray….can I get an amen?
Tina Johnson
July 31, 2012 at 1:07 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
People are getting mad at the wrong person. This sin is man made not ordained by a perfect God. Take this up with him. We are to be a light into a dark world and here we are
Arguing over something settled. You can’t Bend the word of God to fit your lifestyle. He gave us a choice and we Are accountable to only him-no one else. The bible is very clear that the homosexual lifestyle isnt what God created and will not be tolerated by him.
As far as bashing…I see alot of gays bashing straights for how they believe-crazy! I guess being tolerant is only for Christians. The Bible hasn’t changed it is still alive and well. Man has and that
Is sad.
David Mertz
August 1, 2012 at 2:12 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I am a married UM clergy person who grieves over the actions of our 2012 General Conference. Why do we continue to separate what God has joined together? That is our sin. I have had heterosexual members of churches I have served leave the UMC over the pain they see the church inflicting upon gay men and women, and while I very much want them to remain in the conversation and at the table, after so many years of not only no progress but a retrenchment and a continuing hardening of the heart, I can hardly blame them. They tried, and I expect more of these departures before the UMC sees its way clear to act on the truth that God is a God of inclusion and love.
Lucinda H
August 1, 2012 at 8:07 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
A few folks have mentioned the Old Testament references on homosexuality…
Let’s get real folks. A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ…correct?
Christ has NOTHING to say about homosexuality, but LOADS to say about accepting everyone…
remember his stance on casting the first stone?
Let’s not choose what parts of the Old Testament are convenient to follow and other parts that we don’t accept. I assume that none of us advocate killing our children as a sacrifice, sleeping with our parents, abstaining from seafood or “giving” our daughters to out-of-control hoolligans…all of which are “supported” in the Old Testament. Let’s remember the Pharisees and CHRIST’S anger when dealing with them. I’m not sure about the technicality of this, but my understanding was that He came to correct the evils of the past…MUCH of which is supported in the Old Testament. I honestly don’t care what Paul or the others have to say about homosexuality. Let’s just focus on Christ and the inclusiveness he promoted.
This one issue is the ONLY reason I would also leave the church and I have been considering doing so for years. We have a great community locally…I would miss everyone horribly. However, I too feel like a hypocrite belonging to a church which says one thing and practices another.
Rick
August 6, 2012 at 12:16 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
If you dismiss the Old Testament and Paul’s writings, you have rejected approximately 80% of the Bible.
There are denominations that do just that, but in the United Methodist Church, our faith is guided by Scripture, tradition, experience, and reason, where **Scripture is of paramount importance**. Ignoring 80% of the Bible is simply not in line with Methodism and perhaps you should reconsider or find another denomination that might be a better fit for you.
Pam
August 10, 2012 at 7:28 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I am a lifelong United Methodist. I have always been taught in the UM Church that if the teachings in other parts of the Bible don’t concur with Jesus’ teachings, then I should study the discrepancy to figure out what I can learn from it. Because Jesus’ words are always the truth, if there is a contradiction then there must be a problem in my understanding of the other scripture.
Jesus tells us that we are to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves. He taught us to ignore the letter of the law when it keeps us from caring for others, because the law exists to create a world where we care for others. He told us to stop looking at others’ sin and keep our focus on our own. He told us that He is the only way to eternal life.
The Old Testament is true, every single word, but when examined in the light of Jesus’ coming, it is clear that we are no longer bound by its law. Jesus has redeemed us, and we are made holy through Him, not through following the law. Christians instead create a personal relationship with God, and He convicts us when we sin. Picking out laws from the Old Testament and saying that we must follow those makes no sense for those who are redeemed by Christ.
If you are using Old Testament scriptures to condemn homosexuals, your argument has no validity because Jesus teaches that Christians’ lives are redeemed by Him, not the law.
Paul’s letters are true, every single word, but we have to read all of the words in context to understand him. In 1 Corinthians 6, Paul lists all of the types of behavior that are “unrighteous”, but in verses 11-12 he says that once you are redeemed, none of the transgressions on his list matters. Once you are redeemed, all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. We are driven to keep our bodies pure by our relationship with Christ, not by a list of rules that defines our behaviors.
If you are using verses in Paul’s letters to condemn homosexuals, your argument has no validity because you are ignoring the verses where Paul echos Jesus’ teachings that once we are redeemed, we no longer live by a list of behaviors to avoid, but through relationship with Him.
Scripture is of paramount importance, and it is clear that in scripture Jesus says that he is the fulfillment of every word. The Bible cannot be broken down into pieces that are followed as though we have a rule book for Christian living – we must read it as a whole. This isn’t a dismissal of scripture, but an understanding of its ultimate truth in the whole of God’s plan as fulfilled by Christ, and I think it is what Lucinda was getting at in her message.
Rick
August 12, 2012 at 1:41 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Wow. Your position is that we’re no longer bound by the laws of the Old Testament? You don’t live by the Ten Commandments?
Christians make a distinction between Old Testament moral law – that we are indeed bound by – and Old Testament civil law, like dietary restrictions against shellfish for the ancient Hebrews.
Michele
August 12, 2012 at 4:40 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Actually, I think it was Jesus who said that through Him the Old Testament laws were fulfilled (i.e., no longer needed as a mitigation for sin, since He was the ultimate mitigation). And St Paul who, throughout his Epistles, indicated that Christians were no longer bound by the law but redeemed through Christ’s sacrifice and justified through faith (not works).
Also, I’m not sure what distinction you are making between OT moral vs civil law, since for the Israelites all civil laws were moral laws.
Rev.Dr. S.A. Wozencraft
August 10, 2012 at 12:43 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I am a Congregationalist minister. During my career I served the occasional UMC congregation. I hear so much pain in these postings.
Every time I see or hear , “The Bible clearly states …”I know that what follows is not Biblical. I have known many serious Bible scholars in my many decades of life and not one of them has been so positive that the Bible says anything quite so clearly other than to speak of the love of God for creation and God’s concern for the poor.
To Lyle Miller & Sharyn Safold, the “Four C’s” are not a new organization but have been in existence about as long as the UCC. When the UCC formed, many Congregationalist churches chose not to affiliate with the new UCC. Many joined to form the National Association of Congregational Christian Churches (my affiliation) — called “the NA” by those of us within and “the 3 C’s” by many outside the association — and others formed the Conservative Congregational Christian Churches — sometimes called ”the 4 Cs.” It may well be that some churches are leaving the UCC to join the CCCC just as we of the NACCC frequently have churches join our association.
For those so hurt by this issue, I offer my empathy, sympathy, prayers … I only with I could do more. I wish you the peace ad comfort of the Loving God, the Living Christ.
David
September 1, 2012 at 3:50 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
I wonder why we continue to fight over this. I do not believe any minds or hearts are being changed. The only thing holding this church together is money. Specificaly the retirement system and the real estate. Check your church history ,we have split before. Let’s stop beating each other up and agree to disagree.
We separate the retirement system from the denomination and allow the local church to take their property with them to whatever new affiliation they choose. Sell all the property in New York and DC and feed hungry peaple with the proceeds. I think we can all agree we are suppose to feed the hungry. This will not be cheap or easy ,but it is certainly doable. I know there are some very politicaly powerful folks who will loose their power base ,but I dont remember that Jesus had a PAC. You are certainly free to disagree. I know the devil is in the details ,but come on people ,”Can’t we all just get along”
Tired of it all.